Episode 68: How can citizens craft legislation?

What does a government “of the people, by the people, and for the people" actually look like in practice?

If you listen to Bold Dominion, you probably vote every November, call your lawmaker about issues you care about, maybe have attended a protest or two. But sometimes it's hard to see how those actions affect the legislation coming out of Richmond. If the GA feels a bit like a black box or a magic show, we don't blame you. Why do some bills make it all the way into law, and others die in committee? Who brings bill ideas to the table in the first place, and how can citizens have a hand in that process?

Today we crack open that black box and figure out how citizens can help craft legislation. We talk with Sally Hudson, who represents the 56th District in the Virginia General Assembly, and Dan Holmes, Legislative Policy Director at the environmental nonprofit Clean Virginia.

Read the Transcript:

Nathan Moore 00:00

This is Bold Dominon, the state politics explainer for changing Virginia. I'm Nathan Moore. Government of the people by the people and for the people shall not perish from the earth. Or so said Abraham Lincoln in Gettysburg in 1863. The guy could turn a phrase. More than 150 years later, what does government of, by, and for the people actually look like in practice, particularly here in Virginia? If you're listening to Bold Dominon, you probably vote every November. Maybe you call your lawmaker about issues you care about, I bet you've even attended a protest or two. But sometimes it's still hard to see how those actions directly affect the legislation coming out of Richmond. If the General Assembly feels a bit like a black box, or maybe a magic show, I don't blame you. I felt that way before to Why do some bills make it all the way into law and others that seem like great ideas just die in committee? Who brings Bill ideas to the table in the first place? And how can citizens have a hand in that process? Today, we're cracking open that black box and talking about how citizens help craft legislation in Virginia. Later in the show, we'll sit down with Dan Holmes. He's the legislative policy director for clean Virginia, an organization advocating for sustainable energy practices in the State Homes has boots on the ground experience, and he'll share what advocating for new laws looks like. But first, we check in with our old friend Sally Hudson. She's a labor economist who has represented the Charlottesville area in the House of Delegates since 2019. Today, she explains the nuts and bolts of turning ideas into law, and how citizens can get involved.

Alana Bittner 01:48
So to start off, I was wondering if you could give us like a quick overview of how bills are passed into law in the Virginia General Assembly.

Sally Hudson 01:57Sure. So the general assembly is not that different from the US Congress, there is a house and a Senate. And typically bills are introduced in both chambers. And they go through a committee process, which is a small group of people who get to vet the bill first. Typically, a subcommittee has five to seven members and bills that advanced out of the subcommittee stage, make it to a full committee, which has about 20 members in the House. And then bills that passed committee, make it to the floor, which is all 100 delegates, a bill that makes it out of the house, then goes over to the Senate and does it all over again, subcommittee, a full committee and then the floor if the House and Senate passed slightly different versions of the bills, so maybe they pick up some amendments along the way, then the bill goes to what's called a conference committee where we iron out the details between the drafts just like they do in Congress. And then a bill that makes it at a conference goes to the governor's desk, where he can do the same things that a president can he can sign it, he can veto it or he can send it back down with amendments that the legislature can then consider adopting or overriding and at the end of that process, the bill gets signed, or vetoed by the governor and signed bills become law on July 1 every year.

Alana Bittner 03:12
Looking ahead at the 2023 General Assembly, what sort of bills do you expect to see pass, now that we have our current divided state government?

Sally Hudson 03:24

So when Democrats controlled the House and the Senate and the governor's mansion, it was the first time that had happened in a very long time. And so there was a long list of bills that hadn't passed that were actually really popular among Virginians, whether it was basic gun safety measures, or ending long standing discriminatory provisions in Virginia state code. So I think that Virginians got the sense that a lot of bills can get passed very, very quickly, because there was this big queue built up and we start breathtaking progress in very little time. We're now in a very different environment. And we have divided government, with Democrats controlling the Senate, and Republicans controlling the house. And what that means is that a lot of bills come out of each chamber only to die in the ladder. So you have bills that come flying out of the Senate that express progressive values, and then they're dead on arrival in the Republican House, and you have bills coming out of the house that express Republican values, typically things that rollback progress that we made during my last term, and then they're dead on arrival in the Senate. So these days, most bills that get introduced don't pass and that's been like whiplash for a lot of Virginians, because they were used to all of these bills getting introduced, and then passing and then being signing and seeing all this change happened very quickly. Now, most of the bills that you see are mostly messaging vehicles where both sides are expressing what their priorities are. While understanding that there's a really good shot, the other side won't agree. So when you've got that divided government situation, it means that the bills that do pass are the ones where there is broad bipartisan consensus. And unfortunately, there's too little of that these days. And so the bills where there is a lot of consensus tend to also be the bills where there's pretty low stakes. They're relatively non controversial things technical, little tweaks about relatively small policies, it is more difficult these days to find things that are amenable to both the House and the Senate. I would say the exceptions, the things that do manage to make it through lately have been budget measures, were there are making investments in long standing holes in the budget. So this budget does see good money invested in behavioral health providers who everybody knows are sorely needed. And we're before the COVID pandemic, COVID made that that work absolutely urgent. Likewise, we saw the General Assembly finally put a little bit of money behind school construction, which is long been neglected across the Commonwealth, nowhere near enough by my lights, but I think still a good start. So the kind of universally popular stuff is the kind that makes it through and divided government.

Alana Bittner 06:11
For you as a lawmaker, what is the best way for constituents to reach out? Another way of saying this would be like, what catches your eye as a lawmaker?

Sally Hudson 06:21

When I think about what catches my eye most in some ways, I have a pretty simple theory of my job, which is that I should be working on whichever problems I hear people in our community talking about most. So in our community, that's affordable housing, one, two and three, climate change four, five and six, housing seven, eight, and nine. Then after that, healthcare, job stability, workforce shortages, all of that. So, you know, I think that's, that's the job of a delegate is to stay really deeply rooted in the needs of their neighbors, and, and to be working on those, those problems. So, you know, that's really the kind of stuff that catches my eye most, and a lot of that work surfaces, from just the day to day conversations that you have with your neighbors. I mean, we, I think back to one of the bills that I carry this session that became law in July, was about ending the predatory debt collection practices that we saw through the UVA health system, and VCU in Richmond, where we had patients racking up enormous medical bills and not being able to pay them off. And then seeing really aggressive debt collection efforts like seizing wages and putting liens on homes and cars. That's the kind of thing that surfaced from talking to constituents, and then ultimately in national news, and that should vote at the top of the delegates priority list. You know, I work on unemployment, payment issues, because that's the number one reason why constituents call my office in the last two years, in some ways, just working on things that are the the number, the reasons why people call you is is what matters most. In terms of what's the best way to reach out, I do my best to be available on as many platforms as possible. So you know, if you're an email person, you can always catch me on email. If you're a social media person, and you want to shoot me a message on Facebook or Instagram or Twitter, you're more than welcome to slide into my DMs. And you know, I try to be physically present in as many places as possible around town because I think some of the best conversations happen when you see somebody at the park or the festival, or the farmers market or the grocery store, and they just grab you by the elbow and say, Hey, can you talk? So it's a little bit everything.

Alana Bittner 08:40
Gotcha. Okay, so let's say, someone has reached out called you talk to you slid into your DMS, whatever, um, now that they've contacted you, what is the next step?

Sally Hudson 08:53

Well, I think the first step, step zero is diagnosing whether they need a new law or not. Because not every problem needs a new law to solve. Sometimes what we need to do is connect them with an organization or with a resource that already exists and is working on the thing that they with an organization or with a resource that already exists and is working on the thing that they care about. And it's just not yet on their radar. So sometimes people write into me and say, I want you to carry a bill that does x. And I say, did you know that that's already legal? And organization y can do that for you? And here's their number. Let me introduce you. I so that I think the first question is like, do they actually need new policy? Or is this really just a matter of connecting them with something that's already in motion? The next step, I think, is assessing which level of government is best suited to do their job. Because sometimes people write to their delegate because I'm the elected official, they know, but the problem that they want to solve is really better handled by the Board of Supervisors, or the thing that they need is really a matter for the US House and Senate. It's not something that state government really handles like a I am not the best person to call with a problem about the post office or foreign affairs. Because that's something that's handled by the federal government. Likewise, there's only so much that I can do as your delegate to make your trash pickup happen faster. But if you want to talk about something that's going on in the public schools, or with labor law, or, you know, the pipelines or utilities like that's the kind of stuff that's the purview of state government. So I think step one is figuring out who holds the lever that gets to work on the problem that they need. And then you think after that, it's really a matter of understanding how much support there probably already is in Richmond for the idea that they have. Because you it may not be something where you need to build a big political coalition, like it may be something where you can actually just bring folks together, legislate legislator, to legislator, because it's, it's a problem that was not yet on the legislators radar. But once you explain it, to them, it seems like it's got a pretty straightforward solution. It's not super controversial. There are plenty of bills that we passed like that, in fact, those are the kinds of bills that that passed most often these days. So you know, before you think about trying to build a grassroots army, it's worth ensuring that one you that you need one, and then which way to aim it. The other thing that I think can be sometimes really hard to hear for constituents is that there is only so much you can do to influence the vote of someone you can't vote for. So if you're one citizen in Charlottesville, and you call me and ask me where I stand on an idea that you have, and I tell you that I'm all aboard, then it doesn't help so much to get 500 People from Charlottesville on board, to try to lobby my colleagues to change their minds, like once your own delegate is on board, then you really have to start building horizontally rather than just adding more people. So you have to figure out how do we get other people in other communities with other districts and representatives to share our priority in this issue. Because no amount of people from Charlottesville calling someone who serves in Virginia Beach is likely going to change their minds. It like 500 people from Charlottesville can call Virginia Beach, and there's less impact than having five people from Virginia Beach, call their own delegate. In some ways, that can sound frustrating. But it's actually democracy in its purest sense, which is our job is to work for the people we work for. And I don't represent Virginia Beach. And that doesn't mean that I'm not supposed to be sensitive to their concerns. And if somebody makes a good argument for why something that affects them and not Seaville is something I should care about, then my my ears are open. But it really is the job of the delegate from Virginia Beach to listen to their district. And it's my job to listen to this one.

Alana Bittner 12:54
I know you mentioned this briefly in the very beginning. But could you also elaborate a little bit more on the role of committees in this process.

Sally Hudson 13:01

So the Committee stage is really where most of the workshopping of Bill text happens, by the time a bill gets to the floor, it tends to be pretty fully cooked. And it either gets voted up or down. Committees are the group of a small group of people who are focused on a particular topic area, who are going to dig in on the details. So the vast majority of bills that make it out of subcommittee get voted up through committee as well. And most things that make it out of committee pass on the floor to the real practical reason for that is that the majority party of points, the committee chairs and committee composition. And so if the Speaker of the House or the Senate majority leader doesn't want a bill to pass on the floor, they will make sure that it dies acquired or death in committee before it ever gets there. And so that's that's a reality of politics. And it means that if your delegate doesn't serve on the committee that controls the bill that you care about, they may never get a chance to vote for it. So that's that's why that's the why there's it's so important to build statewide coalition's, like for example, I'm an economist, not a lawyer. So I'm on finance. And not course, that makes sense. And that means that, you know, our community can care passionately about criminal justice. But I typically don't get to vote on those bills until they make it to the floor. And I do everything that I can to talk to my colleagues who are on those committees and express the values of our community and how we think about them. But that's if if advocates around an issue can build a statewide coalition and be talking directly to the members of the Courts Committee. That's a much more powerful move. Because those those people have districts of their own to represent. And that's, I think that's why it's really really important if people are trying to take their advocacy game to the next level, that they need to be thinking about building coalitions across Virginia.

Nathan Moore 15:09

Sally Hudson is a member of the Virginia General Assembly representing House District 57. Stay with us. We'll be back after a quick break. You're listening to Bold Dominon, a state politics explainer for changing Virginia, visit us online at Bold dominon.org. If you've ever had a question about state politics, let us know. Maybe we'll do a show about it. Shoot us an email at Bold dominon@virginia.edu. You can find us on Apple podcasts, Spotify, and wherever find podcasts are served up. Go ahead and SUBSCRIBE. And leave us a nice review while you're there. Bold Dominon is a member of Virginia audio collective online at Virginia audio.org. You can check out all the podcasts from the collective from science to history to music and Community Affairs. We amplify the voices of people in our community, and help them tell stories that matter. You can listen and subscribe at Virginia audio.org. So crafting new legislation. We've figured out more about the process from the lawmakers side. What does advocating for bills look like from a grassroots perspective. Dan Holmes is the legislative policy director from clean Virginia. And he breaks it down for us.

Alana Bittner 16:23
Clean Virginia describes itself as an independent advocacy organization, could you just like give a quick definition of what that means?

Dan Holmes 16:29

Yeah, so we're a nonprofit organization, we advocate for affordable clean energy in Virginia, our legislative team advocates for issues at the General Assembly. And we work with several partners to support lasting public movements that encourage lawmakers to put the interests of partners to support lasting public movements that encourage lawmakers to put the interests of everyday Virginians first. As far as advocacy is concerned, we work with member based organizations, we inform them and work with partners on a whole host of legislative issues, when we're able to provide them materials that can amplify our concerns. You know, clean Virginia tries to act as a resource to those those individuals, especially legislators, when they come to us asking us policy questions and trying to provide them the materials that they would need to be successful. But as far as our efforts at the General Assembly, it's mostly tied to, again, the lobbying side and the legislative reform

Alana Bittner 17:23

People begin to start thinking about, Oh, this session is happening like kind of right before January. But obviously you guys probably be working on the way before, like when does that lobbying and talking with lawmakers begin?

Dan Holmes 17:34

Policy discussions happen year round, major things can pop up at any time and cause you to shift those those discussions and take on new priorities. Having said that, the main part of your focus as far as legislative efforts, you know, you'll be meeting with patrons is in early fall, because that's when they're preparing for their legislative agenda. You know, legislators have Bill limits and other things that they have to contend with a lot of good ideas are thrown at legislators all the time, and ensuring that your policy kind of rises to the top, it requires a couple of different things it requires, first of all, getting that idea for the legislator in a timely fashion. So they're not running into Bill limits later. It also requires, you know, making sure that that patron is as informed as low informed as they can possibly be as it relates to that policy. And really, at the end of the day, the selection of a patron is almost probably one of the more important factors in that. So you need to find a patron that not just wholeheartedly believes in the idea, but will fight for that legislation that will fight off bad amendments that will make sure Shepherd it as much as you want to share with the bill. And ultimately, at the end of the day, is the legislative that has to carry that bill through session. So providing all the support that they would mean, and anticipating the arguments before questions or even raised, ensuring that they have the answers if questions are raised on the committee, that kind of thing.

Alana Bittner 19:05
Could you break down a little bit further? Like what the process is of finding a patron?

Dan Holmes 19:09

So when looking for a patron, you want to find someone who's already, you know, if possible, somebody who's already shown themselves to be a champion of any issue. You need somebody well positioned? Usually what's what's best is to have somebody well positioned on the committee that will hear that bill. You know, whether or not you choose to introduce the bill in the House and the Senate is really a choice based on what policy you're pursuing. Sometimes, you know, it might have an easier road and one body versus the other. So you would want to only introduce it in that body let it get some support and gain some momentum, demonstrate support to the other body for the policy from from you know, and then at that point, you hope that it would cross the finish line. So, ultimately, I would argue when ever possible if you want long lasting change, you need to get a plurality of legislators. And that means from both parties, you know, you can have a partisan victory. But all oftentimes don't last the test of time, I'd much rather see a policy that's been embraced by the entire legislature, or at least a majority of the legislators. And it'd be a bipartisan reform, that provides me some level of comfort that that policy is going to stick. You know, it doesn't doesn't always require bipartisan support. I mean, some of the bills that my time that I felt really great about I honestly did not seek bipartisan patronage and Dennis sought the right patron, but the issue was one that was bipartisan in nature and did not have an issue, you know, gaining that steam gain that that that support. Um, but if you know that that bill, that idea is going to have enemies, it's better to have bipartisan support, and having patrons from both parties introducing the bill ultimately resolves some of that conflict.

Alana Bittner 21:06
Yeah. I'm curious, like, what are the strategies that you use in order to build support across the state of Virginia for a particular piece of legislation?

Dan Holmes 21:17

Well, one is, again, partnerships. With Virginia, it's not it's not an advocacy or organization such that we have a membership. We rely on groups that are of like mind to push the policies that we feel are necessary to create a more friendly environment for the right hair. Again, I think a lot of people can agree certain things shouldn't be that way. For example, we should not be allowed to use campaign funds for personal use. Unfortunately, last year, that bill was shot down once again. And I I just I haven't met the everyday Virginia and that would think that that's okay. And most Virginians don't know, privileges on elections last the committee House committee that that ended up killing that bill, it came over with a 37 to three vote in the Senate, the house in 2019, passed a similar bill unanimously. So something happened, I don't want to comment on what but I will say, this is not, it should not be a partisan issue. This should not be a hard vote. And the citizenry, I would hope, would put pressure on their legislators to rectify this.

Alana Bittner 22:41
Yeah, what are some of the challenges in like approaching that divided House and Senate? And what sort of bill is successful in that environment?

Dan Holmes 22:52

Um, again, a divided house, it's and I've never seen it more divided in my 20 years, I mean, in the environmental community and doing state work at Richmond. Having said that, I still believe there are some legislators out there that are willing to put party aside and just talk about the policy. You know, I think clean Virginia tries to support those legislators as much as possible. But some of these issues like the last one we just talked about, that should be an opening. Now, other bills are much more complicated. You know, we Virginia has long supported a ban of donations from regulated monopolies in general. I don't think that's good policy. Unfortunately, there are not a plurality of legislators that agree with us yet on that issue. But that list is growing. And it gives me hope.

Alana Bittner 23:45
What advice do you have for regular people who are wanting to learn how to convey more effectively, messages to local lawmakers?

Dan Holmes 23:56

The people in Virginia can participate in several ways. One, they can directly talk to the legislator. I can't tell you the importance of someone in a legislators district reaching out to their legislator and saying this issue is important. I've seen bills where five constituents thought a legislator and it was as if the someone to unleash the floodgates. So if a legislator is not hearing about something, someone they think it's not important to their constituents. So let me go ahead and just say it really makes a big difference, especially during session about constituent calls on an issue. Second, they can request an offseason they can request in district meetings with your legislators at any point during the year, you know, and having a conversation with that legislator about what's important to them and their district can influence that legislator when it comes time for session. You know, I've seen times where, you know, a farmer could go meet with a legislator and say, I'm having a real hard time with this issue. You know, what affects me The former as far as I know, in Virginia, and I hope that you keep that in mind. And next thing, you know that legislative just becomes an advocate for farming. And we've never really looked at the issue prior. So again, those in those, those offseason conversations with legislators matter. They can call and email their offices as well, they can actually be the ultimate step is actually testifying on a bill. And one thing I'll say good that came out of COVID was virtual testimony. I think I've seen the fact that we're actually doing kind of hybrid testimony now on these committee meetings, it makes a difference. There are people, especially early on, there were people I saw joining 7am committee meetings, and would have never driven down to Richmond 7am to testify. They're in the valley, and they're calling in at 7am, get the kids ready and prepared and providing the testimony to the legislature on what's important to them, and why that bill should pass or fail for that matter. So I have seen that virtual testimony greatly expand not just this patient, but the opportunity for participation. And I hope everybody starts to use it. I'll also say, and this another thing that should not be discounted, is people talking with their neighbors about these issues. You know, and trying to get their neighbors engaged, their friends engaged. You know, it's nice to get one call into a legislator. But 20 is a lot better than one. As these issues are being hammered out in both in session and off session. You know, that can be direct communication with legislators is critical. This is not tied to clean Virginia. But just in general, as you know, having lobbied for so many years, I'll say my voice is is small in comparison to my voice with 100 people behind me. And so I can walk into a legislators office and I can talk about policy all day long, probably till I'm blue in the face and their board is out. At the same time. You know, if they've already heard from a constituent about this issue, when I walked in that door, there's a much more receptive legislator at the other end of that table. makes my job a lot easier

Alana Bittner 27:14
For you, over your time in this line of work, what have you learned about the process of advocating for legislature that surprised you?

Dan Holmes 27:23

I think I learned that lawmakers are like everyday Virginians for the most part. You know, I think there are some that have probably been around for a long time. And I'm not necessarily speaking to all lawmakers or speaking about all lawmakers. But I, I do find that most of our representatives in Richmond are just people at the end of the day. And there's different ways to connect with different people. And you as a lobbyist, you need to be able to speak language that both sides can listen to. I grew up in a very conservative household I've worked with for very liberal organizations. I've walked the line that a lot of people haven't. But it's only been an I'd say in the last five years that I've really kind of honed and I'd say I improved Basslet in the last five years with how to talk to both sides and try to ensure a bipartisan support of a bill having said that being a lobbyist or an environmental organization is one of those jobs where normally you just you're a masochist, he likes to get kicked in the gut a lot. And so you you tend to wait the victories a little bit. Keep your hands up.

Nathan Moore 28:39

Dan Holmes is the legislative policy director for clean Virginia. Thanks to him and also to Virginia delegate Sally Hudson for speaking with us today. My name is Nathan Moore, and I'm the host of Bold Dominon. Our show this week was produced and edited by Alana Bittner. You can find us online at Bold dominon.org. And don't forget to subscribe. It's just a click away.

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